How can you pay the "Passzuschlag" by the Deutsche Bahn ?

Hi ​@Karchoc 

Trains with mandatory reservations are considered as a separate contract, you have no advantage to book reservations from Vienna to Paris in one transaction. In this case the « Agreement on Journey Continuation (AJC) » or the « Hop on the next available train (HOTNAT) » of Railteam apply if you miss a connection.

What relation do you search for the 21st of December? Some TGV or ICE to Paris may already be sold out for passes, this is the start of the holiday.

​@Karchoc 

One more remark.

You can also reserve seats on two different trains between Germany and France to be sure to have a seat if you are late, but I would cancel one of both reservations before departure to free the seat for another passenger and to obtain a full refund. The SNCF can easily resell the seat with a last minute full fare price…

Thank you for your answer. It would somehow makes sense that trains with mandatory reservations are only sold as separate contract of carriage, but I struggle a little bit to understand how the “seat reservation + valid ticket” as contract of carriage works, as Interrail puts it. I was assuming that according to the German logic, you have a valid ticket when you have paid the Interrail plus the supplement, and that the seat reservation, while required, is a separate thing, and that therefore, a whole journey where you have a DB seat reservation from Paris to Vienna plus the supplement and the Interrail constitutes a valid contract of carriage. If you have any legal basis for that, I would like to see.

Are you sure about the ACJ ? It only applies on through tickets, from my understanding, which explains why I want a unique seat reservation for the whole journey, in order to get a full contract of carriage. As for the HOTNAT agreement, it says that it only applies in Cologne (https://www.railteam.eu/en/services-on-your-journey/hop-on-the-next-available-train-hotnat/), and the conditions are much more restrictive. You have a lot less protections if you have separate contract of carriage than only one ; you are not covered if you are stranded, or even if you miss your connection; furthermore, the delay are not considered on the whole journey in case of missed connections.

In practice, the DB is quite accomodating, and does not really bother you if you have had some delays; I was even proposed a hotel once in Francfort, even if I was not technically stranded with a valid through ticket.

I am looking for the Paris-Francfort and Paris-Karlsruhe trains of the morning (9 AM), which are not sold out by the SNCF. I am aware that there are quotas for Pass Holders from the SNCF, but not from the DB if I understand it well.

My bad, I just checked for Raileurope, they are available for 18€ each. I think I made a mistake with some Paris-Zurich trains that I tried to book. I think that I tried to book for the whole journey, which Raileurope cannot do (it cannot split the reservation, quite surprisingly, even if that would work), and I incorrectly assumed that the SNCF train was fully booked. I did not manage to find the ticket with SNCB international.

I just checked, but Paris-Frankfurt at 9 AM, 21st december, and Paris-Stuttgart at around 10:30.

It makes sense for me. The DB seems not to be able to make reservations for now on this train.

​@Karchoc 

Extract of the Conditions of Use for Eurail and Interrail Passes

1.4 One Contract or Multiple Contracts

Within the meaning of the Rail Pass, journeys or segments of journeys consisting

exclusively of several successive railway services that do not require mandatory

reservations constitute a single contract of carriage or through-ticket.

If a segment of the customer journey requires mandatory reservation or if several

mandatory reservations are booked in a single commercial transaction via Eurail’s

Reservation Self-Service Portal, then there are different contracts of carriage in place.

And those contracts are not considered through-tickets within the meaning of

Regulation (EU) No 2021/782 on rail passengers’ rights and obligations. Exception to this

rule is when successive railway services are operated by a sole railway undertaking, in

which cases a through-ticket is present.

No, the AJC apply when you don’t have a through ticket. In fact, it is only a possibility to get a free reservation if necessary and continue with the next available train with the same ticket.

I generally do not mind doing that. There is a new route which just opened with a 14 minutes connection in Stuttgart with a train from Westbahn (Vienna Westbahn 8:08-Stuttgart → 14min connection → Paris),  so I may try to do that one day. I have already done that in the Paris→ Vienna direction for the connection in Zurich (2 reservations in the Railjets).  I will maybe book for my parents, so I prefer not to book trillions of seat reservations and cancel them in real time if possible.

Oh, indeed. I do not know if a through journey with the DB, with one mandatory reservation, constitutes a through ticket then.

Even more tricky, as Westbahn is partly owned by the SNCF, how would this apply ?

Did you manage to make this page work ? Because I did not, I only get the standard reservation system.

PS : Nevermind, i just managed. It only cannot book a whole journey.

​@Karchoc 

On international tickets, you have usually a numeric code for railway companies (RICS Code), sometimes with the prefix CIV (Convention internationale concernant le transport des voyageurs et des bagages par chemins de fer), for example CIV 1080 for DB or CIV 1187 for SNCF. The code for Westbahn is 3236, it is not the same as SNCF.

Please note that Westbahn is not participant of the AJC. You have no passenger rights if you miss a connection between Westbahn and DB, unless you have a through ticket. I don’t know if it is possible to buy through tickets including a Westbahn leg.

Correct. That works well with SNCF reservations (e.g. booked via Rail Europe) because you can cancel them until 30 minutes after departure. However, the DB reservations for the France-Germany TGV/ICE trains can only be cancelled until the day before the journey.

This is a very good remark. Westbahn clearly states on its website that they do not take any responsability in case of missed connection. Yet, I have not seen that in their terms and conditions. Westbahn is indeed not the same company as SNCF, but so is Alleo ; yet I think that a SNCF ticket followed by a ticket by the DB would somehow be covered if they were to be bought through the same transaction. That was my argument : if you have a missed connection between a train of train company A and a train of train company B that company A owns partially (like Alleo and DB, or SNCF and Westbahn), how does it work ?

From a legal point of view, I would also argue that unless it is clearly stated in the terms and conditions, a company is responsible of the damage caused by the partial inexecution of a contract. In France, this is limited to (very) direct and foreseeable consequences, but I would argue that if you miss a connection between SNCF and Westbahn because of the SNCF, as SNCF does not say in its terms and connection that it declines responsability in case of a missed connection with another train company, the SNCF would be legally liable for the buying of a new train ticket. On the other way around, in case of a missed connection between a Westbahn train and a SNCF train because of Westbahn, the same reasonning can be applied, as I have not seen this limitation of responsability clearly in the conditions, and that the German law is even more severe in case of a  damage caused by the partial execution of a contract.

But I am not a lawyer, and even if my reasoning was true, good luck with asserting your rights if a conciliation procedure does not solve the problem (as you would not sue a train company for such a small amount of money). 

Alleo is not a railway company. If you buy a ticket for an ICE or TGV between Germany and France, then DB (1080) and SNCF (1187) will be listed as the "carriers”, the railway companies that will transport you.

As to when you have a through ticket, with rights (outside of things like HOTNAT and AJC) when a connection goes wrong, have a look at EU Regulation 2021/782, in particular article 12.

I have just had a look at it. Indeed, the definition of “sole railway undertaking” is clearly not applicable here, as SNCF has no decisional power over Westbahn. Therefore, I think that there is no way that a train ticket with a connection in Stuttgart by Westbahn and then the SNCF would constitute a through ticket.

Yet, I would argue that the fact that you do not have a through ticket does not deprive you of any right to compensation, it just deprives you to have it automatically. Your delay is also not calculated on your whole journey in case of a missed connection, without a through ticket. It would be a generous reading of article 12 for train companies to say that if you miss a connection between two train companies, the first company is not liable for the missed connection (at least if this delay can give way to compensation, as if it is of more than 30min for the SNCF). Train companies are expected to cooperate to propose through tickets, and the French Code Civil is here more generous than the article 12 as for damage compensation.

But once again, you may have to sue for having your second train ticket repaid, so it is not realistic.

I have also just realised that Alleo does not exists anymore. The SNCF does not seem to be aware of this fact, as the name is still used in its fare list (https://www.sncf-voyageurs.com/medias-publics/2024-10/tarifs-voyageurs-version-4-octobre-2024-vdef-fr.pdf ).

AFAIK Alleo never was a carrier on the tickets. It was just the name of the co-operation between DB and SNCF that managed the Germany-France ICE/TGVs. DB and SNCF always remained the carriers.