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planning a trip

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Hi, we are a family of 4 adults and one child 6 years old. We just bought passes for 10 days within 2 months. I was trying to find some journeys using the planner, but unfortunately i wasn't very successful. So i have following questions

1. On the 5 July late on the day or on the 6 july very early i wanted to find a connection from Vejle/Kolding in dk to Munich in de with a night express and with sleeping department, so that we would be in munich in the morning on the 6 july. i couldn't find any.

2. Generally when traveling in July during a weekdays is it always worth to make reservations also for trains which don't require one?

3. Monday, the 10 July from Ljubljana in sv to Verona in it in the morning i could find any train connections, only with some flexbus. How to find one?

4. On the 12 July from Verona to Chur in ch in the morning i only found a connection through Zurych but we wanted to take to tirano to take Bernina express or regular train on the route from there to chur. How to do it?

5. On the 14 July we wanted to take the glacier express from Chur to Zermatt, but we only found a train going through Zurych. 

6. On both the glacier express and Bernina express can we take with our passes regular train instead of this with the special names, but traveling the same route? If yes, how to find them? And do we need reservations for the regular trains?

7. On the 18 July in the morning we wanted to take a train from Geneva to Zurych, then make a stopover in Zurych for few hours and then some night train back to dk. Any suggestions how to plan this part of our trip?

Kind regards viking

 

 

 

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Best answer by Hektor 14 March 2023, 18:19

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R
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Keep in mind that Italian timetables are still far from complete for the summer timetable starting on 11 June. To get an idea of the possibilities, search for timetables on the same day of the week but before 11 June.

As to the Glacier Express, you won't always find it if you just ask for Chur to Zermatt because it is not the fastest connection. Force the journey to go via Andermatt.

Also don't use the rail planner app or the Interrail website to plan because they're not reliable and often out of date. Use national planners/websites and for international planning, the DB website is a good choice. For Switzerland use www.sbb.ch (also quite good for international timetables) for Italy www.trenitalia.com.

Please ask questions in the community and not via a private message. That's the quickest way to get a response. I don't work for Eurail/Interrail.
T
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1. There would be a Nightjet leaving Hamburg Hbf to Passau at 20:24.

- IC Vejle - Hamburg Hbf 16:24 - 20:02

- NJ Hamburg Hbf - Passau 20:24 - 06:24

- RE Passau Hbf - München Hbf 06:46 - 08:56

There's indeed no direct night trains from Hamburg. There are ICE trains running through the night but they have regular seats only.

If you want to take this night train, book it asap.

Another option would be to take Zurich's night train and leave it in Karlsruhe at 06:02. As it leaves Hamburg Hbf at 22:07 you'll get less sleep. This option would get you in Munich between 10:00 and 11:00.

Edit : Zurich-bound night train is already full. Vienna-bound night train which you'd leave in Passau has couchettes for 176€ (private) or for 136€ (with 2 other people). I'd buy all the night trains ASAP. There's not enough couchettes at all to meet the demand all over Europe as you can see.

 

2. On busy mainlines it is recommended. In Switzerland I do not usually recommend it because it is rare to find a full train and people won't care about your reservations because it is so unusual to make one (unless you're a class or a big group).

3. There is a connection leaving Ljubljana at around 7:00. You can check the current timetables and they shouldn't change a lot this summer.

4. There will be engineering works between Sondrio and Tirano between June and September. No trains will be running but there will be replacement buses. Just allow an extra bit of time. The Bernina Line is a must but it is not necessary to pay extra for the big windows. You can either take the hourly regional trains with some open-air coaches in the summer (check on SBB app), or the first coaches of the Bernina Express with windows that can be opened (reservation-free) !

Hektor
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Hi, we are a family of 4 adults and one child 6 years old. We just bought passes for 10 days within 2 months. I was trying to find some journeys using the planner, but unfortunately i wasn't very successful. So i have following questions

1. On the 5 July late on the day or on the 6 july very early i wanted to find a connection from Vejle/Kolding in dk to Munich in de with a night express and with sleeping department, so that we would be in munich in the morning on the 6 july. i couldn't find any.

2. Generally when traveling in July during a weekdays is it always worth to make reservations also for trains which don't require one?

3. Monday, the 10 July from Ljubljana in sv to Verona in it in the morning i could find any train connections, only with some flexbus. How to find one?

4. On the 12 July from Verona to Chur in ch in the morning i only found a connection through Zurych but we wanted to take to tirano to take Bernina express or regular train on the route from there to chur. How to do it?

5. On the 14 July we wanted to take the glacier express from Chur to Zermatt, but we only found a train going through Zurych. 

6. On both the glacier express and Bernina express can we take with our passes regular train instead of this with the special names, but traveling the same route? If yes, how to find them? And do we need reservations for the regular trains?

7. On the 18 July in the morning we wanted to take a train from Geneva to Zurych, then make a stopover in Zurych for few hours and then some night train back to dk. Any suggestions how to plan this part of our trip?

Kind regards viking

[1]

To get on the train to München, you'd need to leave Vejle at 16.24 or Kolding at 16.58 and change at Hamburg Hbf; arrives München Hbf 7.09. There's no other covenient train connection if you'd like to get a sleeper. 

[2]

It depends on class, train and country. You didn't mention both. But to get five places together isn't that easy. So it's up to you if it's worth the money. 

[3]

First connection is at 5.47, another good one late at 14.21, change at Trieste Centrale. Other connections in between via Trieste do require more changes. It's also possible to go via Villach (maybe the more interesting route). Timetables for Italy aren't comfirmed completely yet, so that's why you won't find good connections; you'll just have to wait. Search for a date in nearer future to get an idea.

[4]

Same problem here. But it will be possible to go Verona - Milano - Tirano - Chur.

[5]

Glacier Express leaves Chur 11.05 / 12.14 / 14.26, arrives Zermatt 17.10 / 18.10 / 20.10. Search for direct connections.

[6]

Of course this is possible and saves a lot of money. First part: Chur to Disentis. Second part: Disentis to Andermatt. Third part: Andermatt to Brig or Visp. Fourth part: Brig or Visp to Zermatt. No reservation required. 

[6a]

Not asked, but if you want to do a great trip through the swiss mountains I'd recommend to skip Chur for Andermatt. With today's timetable, it would be possible to leave Verona at 8.32, go via Berninapass and Oberalppass and arrive Andermatt at 19.22. If you stay there, this would give the possibility to leave Andermatt at 8.37 (if it's July 14th) and take the train via Furkapass (once the highlight of the Glacier Express, now skipped by regular trains) for Zermatt (arrives 14.14).

[7]

Geneva to Zürich runs very frequently (two trains per hour). The night train going north from Zürich is just confirmed to run to Hannover (may change).

ralderton
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  1. There should be a night train from Hamburg to Munich, but I don’t see it in the timetable at the moment. Maybe somebody else knows
  2. It depends on the trains. If you’re travelling at busy times, like Friday evening. Or on busy routes, like Berlin-Prague, then reservations are a good idea. Especially as you are a relatively large group
  3. Try Ljubljana - Trieste, Trieste - Verona, to help searches
  4. I highly recommend the Bernina Express! You probably need to get from Verona to Milan, then Milan to Tirano. There is currently a bus replacement for part of the trip from Milan to Tirano, but it’s worth the hassle. The Bernina Express departs from Tirano.
  5. Yes, definitely direct trains on this route, without going via Zurich. For example train 903 departing 1105
  6. Yes, you can take normal trains along the route with no reservation. It’s only the panorama cars that need reservation, and I found the normal trains very good quality - often with big windows anyway.
  7. Geneva to Zurich has very regular intercity trains taking about 2h40. No reservations needed. I would have a look for night trains from both Zurich and Basel, and see which suits your itinerary.

The best site for checking train times is www.bahn.de - If a journey is long, or doesn't show any good results, be sure to break it down and check smaller sections of the journey.

Seat61 is really helpful for the Bernina Pass trip (and helpful for everything!) https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/bernina-express.htm

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Thanks, on what website did you find it? There is no other much shorter option?

V
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Keep in mind that Italian timetables are still far from complete for the summer timetable starting on 11 June. To get an idea of the possibilities, search for timetables on the same day of the week but before 11 June.

As to the Glacier Express, you won't always find it if you just ask for Chur to Zermatt because it is not the fastest connection. Force the journey to go via Andermatt.

Also don't use the rail planner app or the Interrail website to plan because they're not reliable and often out of date. Use national planners/websites and for international planning, the DB website is a good choice. For Switzerland use www.sbb.ch (also quite good for international timetables) for Italy www.trenitalia.com.

But if i will use other planners, how then can I add the trip to my pass?

R
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But if i will use other planners, how then can I add the trip to my pass?

By the time you travel, the rail planner app is usually better up to date and you look for your trains there and add them to your pass. Any trains you don’t find you can add manually.

Please ask questions in the community and not via a private message. That's the quickest way to get a response. I don't work for Eurail/Interrail.
V
Rank
Badge +2

Hi, we are a family of 4 adults and one child 6 years old. We just bought passes for 10 days within 2 months. I was trying to find some journeys using the planner, but unfortunately i wasn't very successful. So i have following questions

1. On the 5 July late on the day or on the 6 july very early i wanted to find a connection from Vejle/Kolding in dk to Munich in de with a night express and with sleeping department, so that we would be in munich in the morning on the 6 july. i couldn't find any.

2. Generally when traveling in July during a weekdays is it always worth to make reservations also for trains which don't require one?

3. Monday, the 10 July from Ljubljana in sv to Verona in it in the morning i could find any train connections, only with some flexbus. How to find one?

4. On the 12 July from Verona to Chur in ch in the morning i only found a connection through Zurych but we wanted to take to tirano to take Bernina express or regular train on the route from there to chur. How to do it?

5. On the 14 July we wanted to take the glacier express from Chur to Zermatt, but we only found a train going through Zurych. 

6. On both the glacier express and Bernina express can we take with our passes regular train instead of this with the special names, but traveling the same route? If yes, how to find them? And do we need reservations for the regular trains?

7. On the 18 July in the morning we wanted to take a train from Geneva to Zurych, then make a stopover in Zurych for few hours and then some night train back to dk. Any suggestions how to plan this part of our trip?

Kind regards viking

 

[1]

To get on the train to München, you'd need to leave Vejle at 16.24 or Kolding at 16.58 and change at Hamburg Hbf; arrives München Hbf 7.09. There's no other covenient train connection if you'd like to get a sleeper. 

[2]

It depends on class, train and country. You didn't mention both. But to get five places together isn't that easy. So it's up to you if it's worth the money. 

[3]

First connection is at 5.47, another good one late at 14.21, change at Trieste Centrale. Other connections in between via Trieste do require more changes. It's also possible to go via Villach (maybe the more interesting route). Timetables for Italy aren't comfirmed completely yet, so that's why you won't find good connections; you'll just have to wait. Search for a date in nearer future to get an idea.

[4]

Same problem here. But it will be possible to go Verona - Milano - Tirano - Chur.

[5]

Glacier Express leaves Chur 11.05 / 12.14 / 14.26, arrives Zermatt 17.10 / 18.10 / 20.10. Search for direct connections.

[6]

Of course this is possible and saves a lot of money. First part: Chur to Disentis. Second part: Disentis to Andermatt. Third part: Andermatt to Brig or Visp. Fourth part: Brig or Visp to Zermatt. No reservation required. 

[6a]

Not asked, but if you want to do a great trip through the swiss mountains I'd recommend to skip Chur for Andermatt. With today's timetable, it would be possible to leave Verona at 8.32, go via Berninapass and Oberalppass and arrive Andermatt at 19.22. If you stay there, this would give the possibility to leave Andermatt at 8.37 (if it's July 14th) and take the train via Furkapass (once the highlight of the Glacier Express, now skipped by regular trains) for Zermatt (arrives 14.14).

[7]

Geneva to Zürich runs very frequently (two trains per hour). The night train going north from Zürich is just confirmed to run to Hannover (may change).

1. Ham - Munich - Is this the same connection as the one mentioned by thibcabe? Where did you find it and all the others?

2. What are the trains condition in Italy nowadays, i was travelling there last in 80ties?

 

Hektor
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1. Ham - Munich - Is this the same connection as the one mentioned by thibcabe? Where did you find it and all the others?

No, it's this Nightjet:

Screenshot from ÖBB app. But didn't check availabilty. 

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1. There would be a Nightjet leaving Hamburg Hbf to Passau at 20:24.

- IC Vejle - Hamburg Hbf 16:24 - 20:02

- NJ Hamburg Hbf - Passau 20:24 - 06:24

- RE Passau Hbf - München Hbf 06:46 - 08:56

There's indeed no direct night trains from Hamburg. There are ICE trains running through the night but they have regular seats only.

If you want to take this night train, book it asap.

Another option would be to take Zurich's night train and leave it in Karlsruhe at 06:02. As it leaves Hamburg Hbf at 22:07 you'll get less sleep. This option would get you in Munich between 10:00 and 11:00.

Edit : Zurich-bound night train is already full. Vienna-bound night train which you'd leave in Passau has couchettes for 176€ (private) or for 136€ (with 2 other people). I'd buy all the night trains ASAP. There's not enough couchettes at all to meet the demand all over Europe as you can see.

 

2. On busy mainlines it is recommended. In Switzerland I do not usually recommend it because it is rare to find a full train and people won't care about your reservations because it is so unusual to make one (unless you're a class or a big group).

3. There is a connection leaving Ljubljana at around 7:00. You can check the current timetables and they shouldn't change a lot this summer.

4. There will be engineering works between Sondrio and Tirano between June and September. No trains will be running but there will be replacement buses. Just allow an extra bit of time. The Bernina Line is a must but it is not necessary to pay extra for the big windows. You can either take the hourly regional trains with some open-air coaches in the summer (check on SBB app), or the first coaches of the Bernina Express with windows that can be opened (reservation-free) !

Thanks,

1. what website did you use to find the connections in point 1?

2. I found one connection from Ljubljana to Verona Wich takes 6 hours, but the first part to Trieste is covered by flexbus, is it covered by the pass?

3. The replacement bus from Verona to tirano will be covered by the pass and how to book it?

 

R
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1. what website did you use to find the connections in point 1?

The standard website is www.bahn.com. But sbb.ch or fahrplan.oebb.at are also good for international planning. But keep in mind that currently the Italian timetable from 11 June onwards is not complete.

2. I found one connection from Ljubljana to Verona Wich takes 6 hours, but the first part to Trieste is covered by flexbus, is it covered by the pass?

Flixbus is not covered. 

3. The replacement bus from Verona to tirano will be covered by the pass and how to book it?

This bus is covered by the pass because it's a replacement bus. You can't book it, just add it to your pass and find a seat.

Please ask questions in the community and not via a private message. That's the quickest way to get a response. I don't work for Eurail/Interrail.
T
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1. Yes I used SBB app but weirdly it didn't give me the Innsbruck-bound night train stopping in Munich. Although ÖBB (the Nightjet's operator) only allows me to book seats for 56€ (4 people) which is weird... There should be couchettes and I do not see that they are full (but could be the case).

At first it is the same train that leaves Hamburg yes but it splits in Nuremberg : one part for Munich-Innsbruck, one part for Passau-Vienna.

It should be possible to book couchettes that go direct to Munich as @Hektor suggested... either on tickets.oebb.at or nightjet.com. Let ms know if it works for you.

2. Ljubljana to Verona will be a long travel day for sure but you'll see great Alpine scenery. Flixbus won't be as pleasant but it could be quicker (leaving enough margin for the following train ride of course)

 

Edit : train conditions in Italy : Frecciarossa trains are great and fast (10€ seat reservation btw, easily obtainable) and regional trains can be hit or miss but there is new rolling stock, at least for Trenord

 

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Hi,

 

Thank you all for your replies. They have been very helpful.

  1. Nightjet Hamburg-Munich. If I want to buy the seats in the sleeping compatment on a website otherthan innterail.com, do I have to pay for those tickets as well or will I just need to show them somehow that I have the passes bought through innerail? OR Can I just buy the seats on anther website without the tickets (as I will have the passes bought on innerail)?
  2. Glacier and Bernina expresses - when I am using the innerail app to create trips and I have a route with many train changes - do I need to create it as one big trip eg. chur to Zermatt OR do I need to create trips for every part of the journey eg. chur - arnematt, arnematt - something else, etc. 
  3. Generally speaking, if I want to make seat reservations already but the particular connection is not yet on the innerail triplanner, can I reserve them on an external website and then somehow add it to the trip on the innerrail app later on?
  4. Replacement bus from Milan to Tirano - if it is not possible to book the seats on this bus, what should I do if there is not enough seats for all travellers to get on? Will they arrange another bus for us or what is the procedure/rules with replacement buses? 
ralderton
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  1. You can buy from www.oebb.at - you don’t need to show them your Interrail ticket
  2. Either is fine. I put the trains in separately, because it’s easier to make changes if you want to take a different train, and it’s easier for my brain!
  3. Reservations and adding a journey to your trip are two separate things. The trip planner doesn’t care about your reservations, and your reservation doesn’t care about the trip planner. The guard on the train wants to see both! Make the reservations as soon as you want to.
  4. There was plenty of space, and lots of buses when I got it last summer. I wouldn’t worry about it. I’m sure they know the expected demand, and have a plan for backup buses or taxi. On the day I was there, there were some buses going straight to Tirano, and some making stops along the way.
R
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  1. You can buy reservations anywhere you like (your pass is your ticket). In the train, you need to show the pass and the reservation. On tickets.oebb.at, the reservations will be 2€ per person cheaper than on the Interrail website. Add the Interrail/Eurail discount and then select "One-way tickets and day tickets”. You will then get reservations valid with Interrail (or Eurail).
  2. You can add the trains as you like: all in one journey or each train separately.
  3. I always ignore the rail planner app for the planning because it's not reliable and only use it to register my journeys while travelling. Reservations are entirely separate from the app. The app can't book reservations and will not show any reservations you booked.
  4. Don't worry about that. Last time I used a replacement bus there, there was enough space.
Please ask questions in the community and not via a private message. That's the quickest way to get a response. I don't work for Eurail/Interrail.
A
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The recommendation from the experienced travellers in the community is to only make reservations through the Eurail website if no other options are available. Please read more about that below. There is no connection between your reservations and the Railplanner, no matter where you make the reservations. 

 

Here is some useful information from the experienced travellers in the Community regarding both planning, reservations and activation of pass and travel days. 

 Planning

The rail planner is normally not up to date, as it only is updated once a month, so to be sure of the time table you better check the timetable and availability on the websites of the national railways. The bigger national railways, like DB (Germany) SBB (Switzerland) and ÖBB (Austria) cover several countries. 

 Reservations 

The advice from the experienced travellers in the community is to use other ways to make reservations than the Interrail/Eurail website.  You can look at the guide in the link:

https://community.eurail.com/train-connections-reservations-47/how-to-get-reservations-105

If you, after having looked at the guide, have questions about how to make specific reservation, please give your travel details (departure date, time and route) preferably in a new topic, and you will get advice.

Please note that Interrail/Eurail charges an extra fee of 2 EUR per person and train in addition to the fee for the seat reservation.

 Activation of pass

During the activation process you choose the start day of the validity of the pass. Once the validity has started it can't be changed even if you haven't travelled. The advice is therefore to wait with activating the pass and starting the validity until the first day of your travel as you only can deactivate the pass no later than 23.59 CET on the day before the validity starts. If your travel plans change in the last moment you can't deactivate the pass and change the validity. 

It can be wise to make a test and activate the pass with a start date well in the future and then deactivate the pass immediately, just to see that everything works.

 Activation of travel day

The advice from the experienced travellers in the community is also never to activate a travel day, that is connect a journey to your pass and create the ticket (QR code), until just before boarding the train, otherwise you might loose a travel day if your travel plans change in a late stage  You can't delete a travel day in the past. A travel day can only be deleted until 23.59 CET the day before the travel day.

Please note that I don't work for Interrail/Eurail and that I don't reply to personal messages.
V
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Hi again, i just tried to book on night jet.com the night jet from ham to mun on the 5th of July for our group but it says that only seating carriage is available, no sleeper or couchette and then I checked all the days in July and it's the same. Does it mean that there are no more places for the whole of July or am I doing something wrong and the price is like more then 200 euros. Is this price for reservations only? Or reservations with tickets? How to buy only reservations and is there a first class as well? We bought first class passes? Or maybe there are other night connections from Hamburg to Mun?

V
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I was just checking on oebb the same connection and the prices was more 300 eur, but it says that it's ticket and reservations, but how to just buy reservations and how to find the sleeping compartments?

I got really confused.

T
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Like you I'm not able to buy couchettes at all for the month of July. It could be full but a bit weird for the whole month already...

Maybe someone here knows better @rvdborgt ?

I can't help you more sorry.

 

PS : The Passau night train still has couchettes for 4 people for 176€ (or 136€ with 2 other people in the compartment). It won't be cheaper than that but we should wait on someone else's advice first I guess.

Then you'd need to buy regular tickets between Passau and Munich, there's no need to use a travel day of your pass.

Passau - Munich tickets are 84€ for 2 adults, 2 children under 14 y.o. : valid all day on any train you'd like to take

or

Passau - Munich - Augsburg for 47,80€ but tied to a specific connection so have a long connection in Passau. Of course you won't use the Munich-Augsburg leg but it won't be a problem

 

R
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The night train Hamburg-Munch already seems to be quite full in July indeed. I didn't check all dates but I had to go into August to find at least some availability for sleepers or couchettes.

Please ask questions in the community and not via a private message. That's the quickest way to get a response. I don't work for Eurail/Interrail.
V
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Thanks again,

i will call danske statsbaner ,maybe they will be able to help with some couchettes.

But how on all the booking websites make a reservation just for the seats, also without paying for the tickets itself. I got higher prices then you and on i think it's oebb it was stated clearly that it's tickets with reservation?

And one more question regarding making reservations on following trips. Do i have to or is it worth doing? We bought finally first class passes and we are a family of 3 adults and one child 6 years old.

1. 8th of July Munich to Ljubljana

2. 10th of July Ljubljana to Verona

3. 11th of July Verona - Venice - Verona

4. 12th of July Verona to Chur - i know no reservation for the replacement bus

5. 14th of July chur to Zermatt

6. 16th of July Zermatt to Geneva

7. 18 th of July Geneva - Zurich - Munich 

Y
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Unfortunately all the reservation services have different ways of accessing a reservation with a global pass. The most popular are listed in many guides, both in the community and on the man in seat 61 site.

However the most relevant to your search is oebb.at where you select add a discount card to each passenger, which opens a list of options. You select the show more button (may need scrolling down to find) and Interrail.Eurail appears near the bottom.

Once each passenger has been added and discount card selected you proceed via the one-way and day tickets button. This shows routings and where reservations are needed or available it will show the price, usually a few euros. Oebb is good for booking Austrian, Italian and cross border trains, but will also detail other operators trains but not offer tickets.

Note whilst oebb has a seat only button it is less useful than the discount card option as it avoids showing many trains.

You use a very similar process for the nightjet site.

Another popular site/planner is the dbahn site (bahn.com) which again is a multi-operator planner and for German trains offers reservations by selecting the seat only option.

Once you have these sorted just post on the community for any others if you do not see an option.

V
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hi again, 

  1. we just managed to nyu the couchette for us self via oebb, but alhought we chave chosen the our discount , we still had to pay likw 349 euro. do you reckon it could be thr right price for just couchette without tickets?
  2. on the way back from geneva to vejle we tried first to zurich to stay there for a few hours, but then we could not find any nightjet fro zurich to hamburg. why is that?

  3. And regarding making reservations on following trips. Do i have to or is it worth doing? We bought finally first class passes and we are a family of 3 adults and one child 6 years old.

    1. 8th of July Munich to Ljubljana

    2. 10th of July Ljubljana to Verona

    3. 11th of July Verona - Venice - Verona

    4. 12th of July Verona to Chur - i know no reservation for the replacement bus

    5. 14th of July chur to Zermatt

    6. 16th of July Zermatt to Geneva

    7. 18 th of July Geneva - Zurich - Munich 

 

T
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1. The 349€ is surely for a private compartment (Interrail doesn't give any discount for that one) but you could have bought a 4-people couchette compartment for 176€ usually and you should all be together.

ÖBB reservation should be refundable, please check.

As you're now travelling in 1st class reservations aren't that important (except for the mandatory ones ofc). But as you'll be 4 people who might want to seat together it could be nice to book them between Munich, Ljubljana and Italy (usually 3€ per person).

- Verona - Venice return : reservations would be mandatory on the Frecciarossa trains (1h12) but you could avoid them by using regional trains (1h28).

- Verona - Milan : 10€ on the Frecciarossa (saves 45 min on a long travel day so useful)

- Tirano - Chur : you could take the direct Bernina Express train at 14:23 in the first reservation-free coaches or hourly regional trains with a few changes (no reservation too)

- Switzerland : no need to buy seat reservations at all.

I don't know why you don't see the Nightjet. Maybe search only for a journey between Zurich and Hamburg ?

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